On 01/27/2019 10:53 PM, holger krekel wrote: Hi, unfortunately there are still no mentions/news about the so-called "recommending dedicated accounts" proposal <https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/thread/6YFHHVB5ERA6O63UONWY6NNHN6RNDXYC/> (of the main devs??) of the last October in order to use delta chat. I'm glad Delta Chat is actively developed, but as of today I am not sure anymore what the scope of the project is: I fear that the proposal has been silently taken for accepted and thus the project turned essentially in developing a fancy mail user agent with a sleek UI (autocrypt can be installed on some MUAs as well the last time I checked). That change has deep effect on the nature of the project and I've tried <https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/thread/TAQGFUOGXWPNR7UV6ETEUYKDX6UKXZJO/> in the past (without luck) to start a more structured discussion about it. Some "words" on the matter would be gladly accepted after 4 months. Is there any particular reason to regularly have community live meetings in Kiev? I've quite a few concerns about gathering in that country: as you probably know, there's an active civil war in the Donbass region and after the western (NATO but mainly USA) sponsored coup d'etat of 2014 against a democratically elected govern, there has been installed one reminiscent of a fascist Junta, with large parts composed of proudly and active field-fighting ultra nationalist Nazist squads (cfr. e.g.: Azov <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Human_rights_violations_and_war_crimes>). In addition, as in the good tradition of nazi-fascist states, there are proscription lists redacted by the current govern and updated daily, of so-called "enemies of Ukraine" i.e. journalists, writers, intellectuals, but also common people who are denied the entry in the country and risk to be jailed because considered "active spies" and enemy of the "nation". Are there any other options apart from this Nazi/Fascist run capital? I'd like to but unfortunately all of them are redirected to the new fashionable discourse web forum (since the website has buried the mailing list subscription link) whose UI I found confusing and distracting. I know that fashion is nowadays increasing important (sigh!) in engaging users (thanks faceboogle!) even in CS circles but it's a bit sad to face this very phenomenon occurring in a project which is supposed to fight back by fostering the use of the decentralized systems like the email infrastructure for communication. Best. -- Marco

Hi Marco, You wrote about your view on what happens in the Ukraine and questioned if it's a good idea to meet in Kyiv. I think it was and remains a good idea to meet in Kyiv and i can assure assure you that everyone involved is aware of the difficult political situation there. By meeting there we are not aiming to help governments but actual people who are in need of secured communications. That we do not place typical western use cases at the center of developments but try to actually work from eastern european, cuban or other "untypical" environments: Do you really think this is a bad idea? Isn't there already enough software developed in the "Silicon Valley" style with "always-connected" paradigms etc and with things optimized and developed for buying, shopping and tracking? holger On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 15:24 +0100, Marco Vittorini Orgeas wrote:

On 02/01/2019 12:18 AM, Xenia wrote: Well, despite not being personally tied in any way to Russia or having any specific reason to take its positions, I'm not that much surprised to be accused of being a Russian propagandist, as this is unfortunately becoming the norm lately for those who call the names and have opinions even the slightest out of the western pro-corporate media mainstream narrative. I'd just add that I honestly don't see how calling fascist a "government" in which key roles are assigned to overtly Nazis apologists belonging to paramilitary brigades (facts widely documented) makes me a Russian propagandist but anyway I think that this "Russian hysteria" thrown around lately (mostly on main stream western media and social media) for which one can't have a different opinion without being accused to be a "Russian puppet" doesn't help having a constructive confrontation on these arguments. No I wasn't there when this so called "revolution" unfolded, but I think that for understanding what happened there in 2014 we have to "zoom out" from Maidan and look at a wider picture of the events and a bit of history: there has always been an interest of the NATO (read US) to get on as much as possible countries of the ex-Soviet Union block (for obvious geo-political reasons), and some attempts to meddling by fomenting discord in various sections of the population has been going on and on since before the so called "orange movement" of 2004, without much success. What's changed since then up to 2014 clashes is that, by their own admission (the infamous Nuland's "fuck EU" recording - https://truthout.org/articles/the-ukraine-mess-that-nuland-made/ ), US has poured at least $5 billion(!) inside the pockets of the "opposition" (mainly extreme right wing groups) with the intent of violently overthrow the democratically elected government. Furthermore, it is a known fact how US Republican Senators and CIA pundits were already having numerous meetings all along during 2013 with the "Nazi rebels" many of whom now sit in the Poroshenko "government": <https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/04/14/ukraine-the-truth/> <https://fair.org/home/john-mccain-human-rights-ukrainian- nazi-photowashington-post/> <https://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12> <https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/15/john-mccain-ukraine-protests-support-just-cause> I believe that we should look at facts and acknowledge that the so called "Maidan revolution" has been technically a "putsch" in which neo-fascists have played a key role, and in which many of the decisions had already been taken inside "closed rooms". I, of course, acknowledge the inefficiency and the corruption of the Yanoukovitch government, and that there has been some sectors of the population genuinely protesting against that state of affair but I also firmly believe in the "principle of non-interference", and that if any revolution or genuine uprising in Ukraine should have ever happened, then should had have been carried out entirely by the Ukrainian population, because to decide the future of Ukraine should be *exclusively* Ukraine's people business. Even more so because look at the overall outcome of that "freedom stances" of the 2014 "revolution"! 1. Ukraine is essentially a country break in two since then, with an active civil war in the eastern regions just because people there speak Russian and don't want to give up on its history and culture which is naturally different from the western regions and they should have the right to not recognize a government which essentially has been installed by another country and now wants to dictate their way of life. 2. The country has been on the brink of economic collapse several times since then, getting millionaires loans from US, IMF, EU and the likes, which, I'd like to remember do so just in *their* interest as Ukraine will need to pay back that amounts *plus* heavy weight interests, and because Ukraine won't have the necessary money to pay off, the only way to go forward will be to start privatizing (as they already started) public assets, public business, public banks, natural resources and even public spaces, opening the way to foreign (mostly EU/US) businesses to come in and rip off the benefits of low wage Ukrainian laborers until it's convenient for them to stay there. Is a fact that in many similar cases ("enemies" government overthrown with the help of right-wing thugs by the US) the solution to economic problems is predatory capitalism and the net result of this neo-liberal doctrines and free market discipline imposed on other countries is always the same: *the people pay the costs*. I'm very sorry for those Ukrainians who genuinely believed that Maidan was going to change the things for the better and even more so for those who are now threatened and being hurt in the eastern regions. I'm also sorry for us, Europeans or Russians, as having Ukraine as a future NATO member is a threat to our peace as that will mean having NATO to carry out military operations on the border of Russia, which is a nuclear power and many European nations host US bases with nuclear bombs instalments, which means that in case of incidents, we Europeans will be the first retaliation targets. I couldn't agree more with you on this point. As a side note, as we are writing, US empire is at it once again, this time trying to overthrow the democratically elected government of Venezuela because of the usual "monster socialist dictatorship", the biggest oil reserve in the country, etc...here we go again! I should disagree here in the sense that those in Ukraine are not the kids or "hot/skin heads" you can usually find rallying across Europe and when they do so e.g.: Germany recent AFD, they always found protesters on their way challenging them. There's ample documentation that those (Right Sektor, Azov, DUK and the likes) are actually Nazi-Fascist paramilitary militias carrying out military operation on the eastern regions on behalf of the government. Also even if that wasn't case, I don't see how having similar thugs riding freely in other countries would make the Ukrainian ones less of a problem or a "normal" condition. Why impossible? In your opinion is e.g.: Norway the same as Ukraine or Hungary? I surely acknowledge the fact that there isn't a perfect democracy nowadays. But I think we should make some distinctions: even though each of those country is only an approximation of what an ideal free, democratic state ought to be if I had to make a list, today Ukraine and US would score around the last places for sure. I'm with you, happy to hear that :) ! "Hackerspace" needs more of this! And some of those are valid and reasonable reasons! (You know how to throw a party there, don't you ;)). I honestly was curious to know why a community of people who supposedly value freedom of speech, free software and human rights was choosing the Nazi occupied Kyiv as the preferred venue. Also being supportive of the eastern regions people/minorities now crushed by the "government", I wondered what the stance of the community was on the matter. I am also happy to hear there's some resistance in Ukraine against the government, I've hardly heard of anything in this sense going on, maybe it's been reported in native language media channels (??). BTW I have the impression you misinterpreted my calling for an alternative: I never intended to call for more meetings in Brussels, I'm all for the "untouched eastern/metro/post-apocalyptic/decadent landscape" it's just that I'd rather prefer one without fascist thugs getting in the way ;)). With pleasure, you have my email contact, go ahead! :) I'm always ready to revise my opinions in the light of substantive factual data (and I hope you'd too). I'd just add that, in any case, stopping calling me a Russian puppet/propaganda victim would surely help the communication ;). Best. Marco -- Marco