Hi Marco, On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 18:44 +0100, Marco Vittorini Orgeas wrote: Are you basing this prediction on testing the current F-droid version (0.100)? Did you get my earlier mail that shared accounts are fully supported and that we think the moving logic has even improved? We invested several weeks of efforts to support shared account usage. True, it's not the only priority of development -- getting a Desktop version out and migrating the UI codebase from unmaintainable Telegram UI code to well workable Signal UI code was a major undertaking. Releases were in fact delayed for some weeks by focusing and refining Shared account usage, and the neccessary involved default moving logic. Please report problems and bugs with shared account usage based on the 0.100 version -- as precisely as you can. We'd like to stabilize Delta/Android during february and then publish to G-Play store. holger

Hi Eduard, On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 23:08 +0100, Eduard Zeiger wrote: DeltaChat will surely remain able to communicate with arbitrary e-mail addresses, whether they use delta or not and whether one uses a "shared" or "dedicated" account. Dedicated versus shared is purely a "personal setup" question: Do you want to give your regular e-mail address out for chatting or rather use a separate "chat" address? We understood earlier last year that many people here on the list and on the forum strongly wished for us to continue fully supporting shared account usage as they considered it a primary feature of DeltaChat to be able to just use an existing mail address and account. While developers know that this causes a lot of complexity, bugs and a continous stream of issues -- efforts that we can not direct towards other issuses which other people find very important -- we resolved ourselves to fully support "shared account" usage and that is now part of the releases. In the current default "shared account" mode, we move chat messages and their replies (even if those are written from non-DC clients) from INBOX to the "DeltaChat" folder automatically. Note that as of 0.100 releases DeltaChat supports several platforms. To stay synchronized, all DeltaChat apps on your account need to watch the "INBOX" and the "DeltaChat" folder and the "Sent" folder. That is the default -- if you change this in "Advanced settings" you need to make sure you change it on all your DeltaChat apps on that account. sure, same here ... we don't have and don't want to have "own" messaging servers but rather continue using regular mail servers :) that's how it should be! :) cool, so let's all try to fix remaining bugs and get a good version out on G-Play soon ;) cheers holger (from freiburg, btw ;)

On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 23:24 +0100, Marco Vittorini Orgeas wrote: This sounds like a bit of an extreme statement that disregards that a lot of people seem to be able to use DeltaChat quite successfully, including messaging with non-delta chat addresses. holger

From: Marco Vittorini Orgeas <marco(a)mavior.eu> Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2019 03:47 To: delta(a)codespeak.net Subject: [delta-chat] Re: My experience with DeltaChat On 01/31/2019 11:11 PM, holger krekel wrote: I didn't want to be extreme: let's say user@domain1 is happily exchanging mails with user@domain2, then user@domain1 starts to use delta to reply to user@domain2, over-taking ownership of future communications with user@domain2. What happens if user@domain1 want to continue using its MUAs to communicate with user@domain2 ? I see quite a big problem here. Betcha those are all using a dedicated account ;) ... or simply live with this Problem... i too think that there are things to be improved.  I also do not know what would happen if I started from scratch with DC v0.100.0 - i.e. if the "takeover" would be less of a problem. One thing I noticed in the past is that moving a sent email from my Sent folder to my Inbox triggers DC to display and "manage" this conversation w/o any action on my side. Note: I basically use the Sent folder only for a temporary location, then moving the email to Inbox before filing/archiving my emails to some other folder. Please let me know how to help and please continue the great work! Raoul

On 02/03/2019 10:43 AM, holger krekel wrote: So any mail from a contact already in the INBOX remains in the INBOX when using Delta? This would litter the INBOX with a myriad of "small" delta chat messages, avoiding which is the whole purpose of the shared scenario. Quoting you from the original post on recommending dedicated accounts (the web archive has lost it) : This is just one of the many things that could go wrong in a mixed setup! The complexity arise from the unsound scope of delta, which tries to act as a full MUA. Holger, point is, you can share an IMAP mailbox with more than one MUA as long as those can be configured to "move" things in a meaningful way. Delta is essentially a "dumb" MUA with preset filters, chances are high will cause problems in a shared scenario and I've suggested some workarounds in the previously linked following-up analysis. "inter-MUA" communication ? -- Marco

On 02/07/2019 10:54 AM, holger krekel wrote: ? This contradicts what happens with the "overtaking of ownership bug" (see my quote of you on my previous email). Under which condition then DC move messages away from the INBOX? And I, for one, would like to hear and discuss with these people...where are they? The only community contact we had on the topic was back on this list, and quite some persons were engaged in the discussion, but at the end we had a "roger" from your side with the intent of suspend the decision after the last October meeting...and after silence now we have a new major release focused on UI polishing. The community process over engagement and discussion is pretty opaque! As for user expectations: those are always various in content and quality, and often times are confused: reading the DC "brochure" on the site, one understands that DC gives a chat experience over the email infrastructure without getting in the way. Many had the impression that DC is instead evolving as a fancy MUA, which gets in the way, but I got the impression that their opinion seem not to weight much. Correct me if I am wrong on this. It would be interesting to get some definition of "us" for the rest of us ;) . Holger, I am not discussing adding "space jet" features nobody would use: I am instead quite concerned with the direction and reliability of the project if it wasn't clear. I think you're mistakenly assuming I am somewhat interested in developing and commercialize/re-package some DC related software, who I'm definitively not. Also, I don't think that suggesting a fork in the face of constructive criticism is the best thing for DC, but thanks for have reminded me I'm free to do so. -- Marco

What can I read here: It is possible to use both versions "F-Droid" and "Dev" in parallel at one device? Really? This would open a chance to use two accounts with delta at one device as long as no other possibility is there! How to do that? Simple parallel installation? Am 12.02.19 um 08:29 schrieb Der Mor:

Yes, you can use both in parallel with different accounts. Keep in mind that you need to update the manual installation manually too. Just download the .apk from https://delta.chat and install it. As ADB already said: They look the same. I personally distinguish them by the place on my home screen (left is DEV, right is fDroid). Am Wed, 13 Feb 2019 00:38:31 +0100 schrieb Christian <schneider17(a)gmx.de>de>:

On 02/12/2019 08:29 AM, Der Mor wrote: I agree, as I said many times before, Delta should not try to be a sort of "fancy-UI MUA" (and this is what I expected and understood by reading the site contents back in 2017). Thus what I don't understand is why then Delta tries so hard to be one! For instance, it allows to reply to regular emails with a "dumb" editing environment: how someone would want to quote/reply to emails while digitizing over a touch screen of no more than some cm is really behind me! It is already pretty difficult/impossible to email with dedicated mobile MUAs! In a shared scenario this behavior is also quite degrading for the "chat experience" because not-savvy/newbies don't understand why they receive emails inside the delta chat, once they have replied/messaged to one of their known contacts. And delta will leave all chat/email messages in the INBOX, so once accessed with a regular MUA the email experience is also degraded because there would be tons of small (chat) emails which aren't filtered by Delta now cluttering up the INBOX! There weren't proposals in the thread because we have yet to understand precisely what is the behavior of Delta in the shared scenario, which anyway as it stands now is still quite complex. Quoting again Holger back in October (I'm re-quoting the original "move to dedicated account" proposal at the bottom of the email for reference as the web archive has lost it, I guess many don't know what we are talking here): The behavior lacking is very simple (and I'm quite surprised I still can't make the idea <https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/thread/TAQGFUOGXWPNR7UV6ETEUYKDX6UKXZJO/> through), it's a simple branch: if (headers.Contain('Chat-*:')) { move-to-folder('Chat') } This way delta would act as a chat client on top of the existing email accounts, and I could start again recommending it without fear that the other user INBOX be messed up by delta assumptions. It could be called a "strict mode" given the present "loose" situation, but I won't because I'd like to think about it as a "chat" mode ;) . If somebody really want to "email in real time with me" without using delta, then, again, aliases/subject prefixes <https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/thread/TAQGFUOGXWPNR7UV6ETEUYKDX6UKXZJO/> could be used to "trigger" delta for the whole conversation. Original Holger's "move to dedicated account" proposal following for the record (mostly unaccounted for how the single issues have been dealt with or discussed in offline chatting): > hey, > > last week Bjoern visited for a couple of days and among > other stuff we discussed "shared" versus "dedicated" accounts. > Shared accounts are ones which are used by both traditional > e-mail apps (Thunderbird, Webmail, Outlook etc.) and DeltaChat. > Whereas dedicated accounts are ones only used by DeltaChat. > > > This is "expected" from the implementation side: if you accept > a contact (opening a chat with a contact implicitely accepts the contact) > then all messages, including new "threads", from/to that contact > are "owned" by deltachat. > > Then, the logic / implementation which moves messages from > the INBOX to the DeltaChat folder has issues, which lead > to messages remaining in INBOX which should be in DeltaChat. > the current 0.20 Android version is known to have issues with it > but they haven't been found yet. > > So we have both user expectation mismatch and implementation > complexity issues here. The Move-to-DeltaChat actions also > cause extra network requests, on a side note. > > Therefore we think it's better to move towards recommending > **dedicated e-mail accounts for DeltaChat**. You may still > use it "shared" but there will be no features or much development > effort sunk into it. > > One problem with dedicated accounts is that people can't > easily use their address-book to get into contact with each other. > There is a potentially nice mitigation for this. Let's presume > that when you setup DeltaChat with your dedicated account > you may specify your traditional e-mail address so that > DeltaChat knows about this address. Then ... > > - if you receive a mail on the traditional e-mail address > (with any MUA/webmail) you can forward it to your DeltaChat > account which will automatically open a chat with the > original poster. You will see the original poster's message > and can type a chat-reply. The original poster will see messages > coming from the dedicated chat address. > If the poster now also fowards the chat-mail to her > delta-address (if it wasn't already a delta-address!), > the two delta's would be talking with each other through > the dedicated addresses only. > > - People with dedicated accounts wouldn't get "surprising" > e-mail as contact requests. Also there is less chance of > dropping back to unencrypted communications because we saw > some non-autocrypt mails from a webmailer/thunderbird etc. > > - DeltaChat could mark contacts/email-addresses if it > saw >99% DeltaChat messages with it (maybe a small "delta" or so), > allowing to make a choice if you want to contact someone > via the delta or their "normal" e-mail address. > > - DeltaChat can make it easy to share things with the "tied" > normal email address to send attachments/pictures etc. > > DeltaChat would then stop to do the move INBOX -> DeltaChat > folder thingie. You could still access your DeltaChat account > with thunderbird/gmail-web interface etc. but you'd see > the DeltaChat messages in your inbox. Gmail for example > would condense 30 replies into a single line so maybe > that's not so bad. > > Note that the question of dedicated versus shared accounts > does NOT have any effect on DC's ability to contact other e-mail > addresses with arbitrary non-Delta MUAs -- that's fully continuing > to work and be supported. > > so much for now ... feedback welcome. > > holger > _______________________________________________ > delta-chat mailing list --delta(a)codespeak.net > To unsubscribe send an email todelta-leave(a)codespeak.net -- Marco

On Github, the support forum, this mailing list, IRC and then at physical user-testing sessions like we did at 35c3 end december 2018 in Leipzig, apart from discussions with friends who use it on a daily basis. It's a pretty wild mix of communication channels. Marco, i posted here https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/message/EVJ… and here https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/message/HW2… to be clear: shared accounts are fully supported, in fact improved (but not perfect, surely!). It was only this mailing list where we discussed "moving to dedicated accounts" and we eventually reversed our direction after the initial feedback round here. With Bjoern i dedicated several days in person together sorting out the Shared Account usage logic and code ... in response to the feedback here. If we didn't report earlier here on the mailing list it's because there are also a myriad of other communications, organizations and coding to do. best, holger