Hi Marco, On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 18:44 +0100, Marco Vittorini Orgeas wrote: Are you basing this prediction on testing the current F-droid version (0.100)? Did you get my earlier mail that shared accounts are fully supported and that we think the moving logic has even improved? We invested several weeks of efforts to support shared account usage. True, it's not the only priority of development -- getting a Desktop version out and migrating the UI codebase from unmaintainable Telegram UI code to well workable Signal UI code was a major undertaking. Releases were in fact delayed for some weeks by focusing and refining Shared account usage, and the neccessary involved default moving logic. Please report problems and bugs with shared account usage based on the 0.100 version -- as precisely as you can. We'd like to stabilize Delta/Android during february and then publish to G-Play store. holger

Hi Eduard, On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 23:08 +0100, Eduard Zeiger wrote: DeltaChat will surely remain able to communicate with arbitrary e-mail addresses, whether they use delta or not and whether one uses a "shared" or "dedicated" account. Dedicated versus shared is purely a "personal setup" question: Do you want to give your regular e-mail address out for chatting or rather use a separate "chat" address? We understood earlier last year that many people here on the list and on the forum strongly wished for us to continue fully supporting shared account usage as they considered it a primary feature of DeltaChat to be able to just use an existing mail address and account. While developers know that this causes a lot of complexity, bugs and a continous stream of issues -- efforts that we can not direct towards other issuses which other people find very important -- we resolved ourselves to fully support "shared account" usage and that is now part of the releases. In the current default "shared account" mode, we move chat messages and their replies (even if those are written from non-DC clients) from INBOX to the "DeltaChat" folder automatically. Note that as of 0.100 releases DeltaChat supports several platforms. To stay synchronized, all DeltaChat apps on your account need to watch the "INBOX" and the "DeltaChat" folder and the "Sent" folder. That is the default -- if you change this in "Advanced settings" you need to make sure you change it on all your DeltaChat apps on that account. sure, same here ... we don't have and don't want to have "own" messaging servers but rather continue using regular mail servers :) that's how it should be! :) cool, so let's all try to fix remaining bugs and get a good version out on G-Play soon ;) cheers holger (from freiburg, btw ;)

On 01/30/2019 08:54 AM, holger krekel wrote: Which causes a big scope issue <https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/thread/TAQGFUOGXWPNR7UV6ETEUYKDX6UKXZJO/> because you end building a MUA which can be used only with a dedicated account, unless you replicate the main features of e.g.: Mozilla Thunderbird. -- Marco Vittorini Orgeas

On 01/31/2019 11:11 PM, holger krekel wrote: I didn't want to be extreme: let's say user@domain1 is happily exchanging mails with user@domain2, then user@domain1 starts to use delta to reply to user@domain2, over-taking ownership of future communications with user@domain2. What happens if user@domain1 want to continue using its MUAs to communicate with user@domain2 ? I see quite a big problem here. Betcha those are all using a dedicated account ;) -- Marco

Hi Marco, On Sun, Feb 03, 2019 at 03:47 +0100, Marco Vittorini Orgeas wrote: If user@domain1 mails with a non-DC MUA then those messages remain in the INBOX [*] -- so accessible to user@domain1's MUA. They are also shown in DC as a chat -- is that what you take issue with? Sharing DC and regular MUA usage with the same account are complex to handle because there are many different MUA setups out there. holger [*] apart from problems arising from inter-MUA communication and DC bugs.

Hey Marco, On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 01:56 +0100, Marco Vittorini Orgeas wrote: Others have different expecatations: Alice expects a webmail-written top-level mail to arrive with Bob's webmail-interface ... the fact that Bob has with DC previously chatted with Alice does not change that expectation. There is no "sole purpose" to the account sharing than trying to balance and adapt with what we perceive as user expectations. We've had many discussions with people on and off line -- if there would be one easy obvious solution we'd maybe go for it ;) Here is the thing: we can not and do not try to satisfy "everybody" which if you think about it is an awfully abstract abstraction. Rather we try to find and balance the code and UI to meet what we perceive as user expectations that seem interesting and relevant to us ... For example, some users would be interested in integrating DeltaChat with Google Drive ... and our attitude is somewhat complex to that ... after all, people use the centralized, tracked and cleartext gdrive system to get someting done ... something that appears to them maybe more important than being hidden from the Google sysadmins and whoever they work with. We are reluctant to do much special work or prioritize around integrating with GDrive systems, however. If folks join who want to develop on this the situation may change ;) The beautiful thing about DeltaChat is also this: we have MPL-licensed the DeltaChat core library and it's quite easy to write UIs on top of it. Just don't name it DeltaChat but otherwise there is nobody stopping you from working with others even within commercial settings. If you want to change things in core talk with us and we'll see what we can do. holger

Am Tue, 12 Feb 2019 00:25:06 +0100 schrieb Marco Vittorini Orgeas &lt;marco(a)mavior.eu&gt;eu>: I am one of the people who advocated for shared account in the offline discussions. I use DeltaChat Dev with a dedicated account and DeltaChat FDroid with a shared account. Works fine for me, so far. Neither account is my "major" Mailing account with 1000+ Mails / Day and I don't think that Delta is (or could be) a good MUA for accounts like this. Personally I don't think there is the one silver bullet to fit all needs (and as far as I understand everyone agrees to this). So if something changes in DC in one way or another, some paths will be opened and some will be closed. But I am also a Dev and so I think any change to the status quo should be made as a proposal on how it should behave, precisely. I have not seen that yet in this thread so I abstained from commenting (and am only doing so because you asked where "these people" are). If you want a specific behaviour then please specify it as precisely as possible as a feature proposal that has the option of being turned off for other people who don't like it. Please be aware that Dev Time is a scarce resource so it might be that no Dev picks it up and does your thing, happens for my things too. And this is, in the end, how stuff is decided in projects like this and also what Holger said: "seem interesting and relevant to us" and later: "If folks join who want to develop on this the situation may change" This was what has been done in the current FDroid Release: We discussed how a shared account could work, defined changes and made toggles that turn this changes on or off. Have a very nice day Der Mor

What can I read here: It is possible to use both versions "F-Droid" and "Dev" in parallel at one device? Really? This would open a chance to use two accounts with delta at one device as long as no other possibility is there! How to do that? Simple parallel installation? Am 12.02.19 um 08:29 schrieb Der Mor:

Yes, you can use both in parallel with different accounts. Keep in mind that you need to update the manual installation manually too. Just download the .apk from https://delta.chat and install it. As ADB already said: They look the same. I personally distinguish them by the place on my home screen (left is DEV, right is fDroid). Am Wed, 13 Feb 2019 00:38:31 +0100 schrieb Christian &lt;schneider17(a)gmx.de&gt;de>:

On 02/12/2019 08:29 AM, Der Mor wrote: I agree, as I said many times before, Delta should not try to be a sort of "fancy-UI MUA" (and this is what I expected and understood by reading the site contents back in 2017). Thus what I don't understand is why then Delta tries so hard to be one! For instance, it allows to reply to regular emails with a "dumb" editing environment: how someone would want to quote/reply to emails while digitizing over a touch screen of no more than some cm is really behind me! It is already pretty difficult/impossible to email with dedicated mobile MUAs! In a shared scenario this behavior is also quite degrading for the "chat experience" because not-savvy/newbies don't understand why they receive emails inside the delta chat, once they have replied/messaged to one of their known contacts. And delta will leave all chat/email messages in the INBOX, so once accessed with a regular MUA the email experience is also degraded because there would be tons of small (chat) emails which aren't filtered by Delta now cluttering up the INBOX! There weren't proposals in the thread because we have yet to understand precisely what is the behavior of Delta in the shared scenario, which anyway as it stands now is still quite complex. Quoting again Holger back in October (I'm re-quoting the original "move to dedicated account" proposal at the bottom of the email for reference as the web archive has lost it, I guess many don't know what we are talking here): The behavior lacking is very simple (and I'm quite surprised I still can't make the idea <https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/thread/TAQGFUOGXWPNR7UV6ETEUYKDX6UKXZJO/> through), it's a simple branch: if (headers.Contain('Chat-*:')) { move-to-folder('Chat') } This way delta would act as a chat client on top of the existing email accounts, and I could start again recommending it without fear that the other user INBOX be messed up by delta assumptions. It could be called a "strict mode" given the present "loose" situation, but I won't because I'd like to think about it as a "chat" mode ;) . If somebody really want to "email in real time with me" without using delta, then, again, aliases/subject prefixes <https://lists.codespeak.net/hyperkitty/list/delta@codespeak.net/thread/TAQGFUOGXWPNR7UV6ETEUYKDX6UKXZJO/> could be used to "trigger" delta for the whole conversation. Original Holger's "move to dedicated account" proposal following for the record (mostly unaccounted for how the single issues have been dealt with or discussed in offline chatting): > hey, > > last week Bjoern visited for a couple of days and among > other stuff we discussed "shared" versus "dedicated" accounts. > Shared accounts are ones which are used by both traditional > e-mail apps (Thunderbird, Webmail, Outlook etc.) and DeltaChat. > Whereas dedicated accounts are ones only used by DeltaChat. > > > This is "expected" from the implementation side: if you accept > a contact (opening a chat with a contact implicitely accepts the contact) > then all messages, including new "threads", from/to that contact > are "owned" by deltachat. > > Then, the logic / implementation which moves messages from > the INBOX to the DeltaChat folder has issues, which lead > to messages remaining in INBOX which should be in DeltaChat. > the current 0.20 Android version is known to have issues with it > but they haven't been found yet. > > So we have both user expectation mismatch and implementation > complexity issues here. The Move-to-DeltaChat actions also > cause extra network requests, on a side note. > > Therefore we think it's better to move towards recommending > **dedicated e-mail accounts for DeltaChat**. You may still > use it "shared" but there will be no features or much development > effort sunk into it. > > One problem with dedicated accounts is that people can't > easily use their address-book to get into contact with each other. > There is a potentially nice mitigation for this. Let's presume > that when you setup DeltaChat with your dedicated account > you may specify your traditional e-mail address so that > DeltaChat knows about this address. Then ... > > - if you receive a mail on the traditional e-mail address > (with any MUA/webmail) you can forward it to your DeltaChat > account which will automatically open a chat with the > original poster. You will see the original poster's message > and can type a chat-reply. The original poster will see messages > coming from the dedicated chat address. > If the poster now also fowards the chat-mail to her > delta-address (if it wasn't already a delta-address!), > the two delta's would be talking with each other through > the dedicated addresses only. > > - People with dedicated accounts wouldn't get "surprising" > e-mail as contact requests. Also there is less chance of > dropping back to unencrypted communications because we saw > some non-autocrypt mails from a webmailer/thunderbird etc. > > - DeltaChat could mark contacts/email-addresses if it > saw >99% DeltaChat messages with it (maybe a small "delta" or so), > allowing to make a choice if you want to contact someone > via the delta or their "normal" e-mail address. > > - DeltaChat can make it easy to share things with the "tied" > normal email address to send attachments/pictures etc. > > DeltaChat would then stop to do the move INBOX -> DeltaChat > folder thingie. You could still access your DeltaChat account > with thunderbird/gmail-web interface etc. but you'd see > the DeltaChat messages in your inbox. Gmail for example > would condense 30 replies into a single line so maybe > that's not so bad. > > Note that the question of dedicated versus shared accounts > does NOT have any effect on DC's ability to contact other e-mail > addresses with arbitrary non-Delta MUAs -- that's fully continuing > to work and be supported. > > so much for now ... feedback welcome. > > holger > _______________________________________________ > delta-chat mailing list --delta(a)codespeak.net > To unsubscribe send an email todelta-leave(a)codespeak.net -- Marco